Transcription of video

Title of video: Politics in the Pub (Live 9 Aug 2018):

The Gagging of Julian Assange

Link to full video:

Length: Excerpt only (24:35 - 52:00)

Excerpt: Christine Assange interviewed by Cathy Vogan

Excerpt only video:

Interviewee: Christine Assange

Interviewer: Cathy Vogan

Date of event: 9 Aug 2018 (Interview pre-recorded 2 days prior)


In voiceover and text: [24:35, 0:00] Question

From: Andrew Partos activist

To: Nicola Roxon (2011 Attorney General of Australia)

Julian Assange’s life is in danger. His revelations, through his amazing computer skills, led to the US Vice President calling him a high-tech terrorist, and other prominent Americans called for his assassination.

Some Americans still have a lynching mentality, as he hasn’t been charged with anything.

Our PM called him reckless and irresponsible, but our Federal police found that he didn’t break any law.

This is a David and Goliath battle of Biblical proportions. How can we save him from the US?”


Cathy: [25:24, 0:53] Christine Assange, really, really happy to hear your voice again. How’s it going?

Christine: [25:30, 0:59] Good evening Cathy. Good evening Stuart, Suzie and audience.

It’s been a long time since you and I caught-up Cathy. Remember, we met on a bus going to Parliament House, yes, to stand outside the front and protest what Obama was doing to my son?

Cathy: [25:47, 1:15] That’s right, Canberra.

Christine: [25:52, 1:20] And we’re still fighting. So, I don’t know if you’re a little bit tired. I’m a little bit tired, but I’m still fighting.

Cathy: [25:58, 1:24] Well, I understand because there was a bit of a lull when it all seemed to stabilize a bit, and Julian was fully functional. But it’s a cliff-hanger again, isn’t it? It’s right back to where we were in October 2011, where we didn’t know what was going to happen next.

Christine: [26:11, 1:39] Well, when he was in the embassy, with President Rafael Correa from Ecuador leading the country, we felt it wasn’t good for him to be besieged, arbitrarily detained by the UK, in there. But at least he was safe and he was being looked after. Since the change of government, and the pressure from the US on the current president, President Moreno, things have all gone back to being very, very worried for him again.

Cathy: [26:36, 2:05] Yes, I heard the embassy staff had changed as well, and it wasn’t the same friendly people as before. So he really is very close to solitary confinement, isn’t he?

Christine: [26:48, 2:15] Yes, it’s been four months now. And he’s been suffering from ill health as a result of the British government refusing to respond to his requests positively, for the normal minimum hour afforded prisoners - of one hour of fresh air, exercise, sunshine, so they can get their vitamin D. And they’ve also refused him access to other medical care, or dental care. So he’s had 6 years of that, and now there’s solitary confinement on top of that. And his examining doctors are very worried, and calling for him to be returned home for treatment.

Cathy: [27:26, 2:52] Yes, John Pilger said, and he’s not the only one, Ross Cameron as well said, that it wouldn’t be so hard for Malcolm Turnbull to arrange that.

Christine: [27:35, 3:02] Well it wouldn’t be hard for anybody, actually. And in a way, it’s in everybody’s interest. The UK government is detaining him arbitrarily. And that’s a UN decision, after a 16 month investigation. They can stop this any time they like.

Julian is not charged with any crime, and not even the bail. That’s just a warrant. And it shouldn’t have been issued, and it should have been rescinded, because it’s attached to an old Interpol arrest warrant, which has now been dropped because of no evidence. So there’s an old warrant sitting there, being used. And the UK government is more than capable of stopping his extradition any time.

They did so with Augusto Pinochet, who was the US-installed dictator in Chile. There was a Spanish extradition warrant out for him, when he was living in the UK. And because he was a US-installed dictator, despite the fact that he was wanted on multiple charges of mass rape, murder and torture, the UK government paid his defense. And then, that’s bad enough, the top extradition lawyer, so the same extradition lawyer that the UK government paid to prosecute Julian.

Cathy: [28:46, 4:13] Clare Montgomery?

Christine: [28:47, 4:14] Yes, Clare Montgomery. Yes. And the Spanish judge who is defending Julian was the same judge who was prosecuting Pinochet. Now, when it got as far as the High Court, and the High Court ruled that Pinochet should be extradited back to Spain to face these charges, the UK government just overruled their own courts, and protected him.

So the UK government carries on about “Oh we must see this through.” It’s absolute rubbish. They’re doing so at the behest of the US, who want Julian silenced for exposing corruption.

And, let’s face it, the Ecuadorian President has made it very clear he doesn’t want Julian there. Donald Trump, I’m sure, doesn’t want Julian in the US because he’s had so much support over there. And no one wants to test the First Amendment. The UK doesn’t want him there - they’re spending millions of dollars, withholding him without charge, and that’s causing them a problem.

Better off if everybody just agrees that he come home and get his medical treatments. If they want to make a fuss about anything, they can do it from America to Australia.

Cathy: [29:49, 5:16] That’s right, and the Inter-American court gave the advice that every country involved, should work together …

Christine: [29:57, 5:24] Exactly.

Cathy: [29:58, 5:25] … to preserve the sanctity of … the international sanctity of asylum.

Christine: [30.03, 5:30] Well, I think that particularly, the Inter-American Court ruling was about non-refoulement. Which means that you cannot send a person who has sought asylum, back to a country, or to a country from which they were seeking asylum. And this would be what would be happening if they evicted Julian from the embassy, put him into UK hands, and ended up in the US.

Cathy: [30:25, 5:52] Well, that’s pre-supposing that they can’t find that loophole where the British prison is the in-between. I mean, they obviously won’t release the indictment until he’s in custody. Wasn’t that the whole point of putting him in custody in Sweden?

To create the ideal [precondition]?

Christine: [30:39, 6:06] That’s exactly right, Cathy. A US Grand Jury indictment cannot be served until the suspect is first in custody. And that’s why … well the Snowden documents, which came out later, showed that the US, in August 2010, had asked their war allies, which included Sweden and the UK, quickly to charge Julian with something after these war documents were published with WikiLeaks. And within, I think it was 10 days to a week, Sweden had launched this allegation of sexual abuse.

And, to cut a long story short, because it happened twice, what they wanted to do was get him into custody. Because then they could serve the grand jury subpoena via a back door in the US-Sweden extradition treaty, which is called temporary surrender, they could quickly render him to the US.

Now in the UK, it’s simply bad, because the UK-US extradition treaty … you do not have to have a prima facie case. So if you’re looking at the … the … there’s no … there’s absolutely no proper legal process for my son.

The US grand jury is in secret. It has four prosecutors. It has no defense material allowed. And it has no judge. Then that comes into the UK.

And if the Ecuadoran embassy evicts Julian, and the UK grabs him on that that now defunct warrant – which should be defunct, it’s not a charge - they can then drop that once they’ve got him in there, because they know they won’t get it through court. Then they’ll serve the grand jury indictment, for which there’s been no proper legal process. Then they can extradite Julian to the US, again without legal process, because you don’t

have to present a prima facie case. Alright? And then when he gets over there, under the National Defense Authorization Act, he can be detained indefinitely without trial.

Cathy: [32:37, 8:04] Well yeah, that could be for him for the rest of his life, actually … [Cross talk].

Christine: [32:42, 8:08] And, face the death penalty or 45 years in jail. If we see him at all for trial.

Cathy: [32:49, 8:15] Oh, that’s so terrible. It’s like a vice.

Christine: [32:52, 8:19] It’s horrific!

Cathy: [32:54, 8:21] It’s a vice. I mean, it’s very hard to find the move that is going to be successful. I do recall John Pilger saying that he needs an x-ray. How bad does it have to get in terms of …

Christine: [33:07, 8:34] Well, it’s basically … The UN Expert Panel on Arbitrary Detention did a 16 month investigation, to which Julian’s lawyers, Sweden and the UK put in different submissions. After looking at all the information, and taking witness statements, they determined that Julian has been arbitrarily detained since 2010.

That is illegally detained. He has not been charged. He has not undergone proper process for the entire time and multiple violations of his human rights.

Cathy: (33:39, 9:07) God, how they hate the truth.

Christine: [33:43, 9:10] What we’re looking at now is a multi-award winning journalist, editor, author, TV presenter and film producer - because Julian is all of those - who has been given Australia’s highest journalism award, the Walkley Award …

Cathy: [33:59, 9:25] Yeah.

Christine: [34:00, 9:26] … who has been detained without charge for nearly 8 years, and tortured for six of them. And the Australian government has done nothing. Now …

Cathy: [34:09, 9:35] Yep. Is there any chance of him getting his passport renewed?

Christine: [34:15, 9:41] Julian has tried to renew his passport and the computer won’t allow him to do that.

Cathy: [34:21, 9:47] The computer said no?

Christine: [34:23, 9:49] Which means the government is not allowing him to do it.

Cathy: [34:26, 9:52] Well, Britons do have to decide on this. And they did decide not to extradite Gary McKinnon, and the situation wasn’t that dissimilar. Well, it was. That was a hacking charge, not a publishing charge. But do you think there’s a chance that it could be voted down by the British parliament.

Christine: [34:48, 10:13] What? That Julian’s extradition could be voted down? Not a chance, not a chance. In fact I would go as far as to say, the planning and dirty politics behind the political persecution of my son, has reached the point where, to assuage the British public, they have withheld extradition of British citizens, because Julian is not a British citizen. And there was a lot of uproar about these extraditions to the US because, you know, obviously any British citizen can be extradited in that way. Not just someone who’s there, like Julian.

And to take the heat off it all, and to convince people fighting for Gary McKinnon or Laurie Love, who later followed him …

Cathy: [35:33, 11:01] Yeah.

Christine: [35:34, 11:02] … there was a groundswell of support for both of those British citizens, and activism on the ground for it. Now if they had extradited them, the group of people that had been amassed to support both those British men, would have flowed over to support Julian.

Cathy: [35:49, 11:15] Yeah.

Christine: [35:50, 11:16] So by not extraditing them, and in fact - cynically - running Laurie Love’s case the day before Julian was contesting that warrant, meant that it didn’t even hit the media cycle properly.

Cathy: [36:00, 11:27] Right.

Christine: [36:01, 11:28] Because everyone was so overjoyed about ... [but] my heart sank the moment that I saw that Laurie Love’s case was listed the day before Julian’s, my heart sank. I knew the fix was in. I’m glad for Laurie. But I knew that the next day it was going to be fixed. And the judge that was put on that case, when Julian was contesting the warrant …

Cathy: [36:23, 11:49] Yes

Christine: [36:24, 11:50] … was Lady Arbuthnot, who is the wife of a Defense Minister, Lord Arbuthnot, who was a previous Defense Minister, and on lots of Defense procurement committees. But not only that, had - since he left parliament - was high up in two Defense contractor companies. And on one of them, was sitting with the head of MI6.

Cathy: [36:42, 12:09] Oh sh*t. That’s great. Well, I was listening to Greg Barns today, and he said, while the Americans and Jeremy Hunt, and even Moreno’s saying: “I don’t agree with Mr Assange’s activities … breaking into people’s private e-mail.”

I mean, making out that he was a whistleblower. You know?

But Greg said today that our [ie Australia’s] Foreign Minister and Prime Minister were not condemning Julian. Not like Julia Gillard had. Not making up things. They were very circumspect. So he saw that as …

Christine: [37:16, 12:43] They’re being silent.

Cathy: [37:18,12:45] Yeah, that’s right. Christine: [37:19, 12:46] They’re being complicit. Cathy: [37:20, 12:47] Yeah, like a client state.

Christine: [37:22, 12:49] I mean, there’s the old saying “Evil flourishes when good men do nothing”. And I that’s exactly what happened.

Cathy: [37:28, 12:56] Yeah. So do you think they’re just going to all deliver? I mean, if he goes to Texas, then we are looking at the death penalty, perhaps.

Christine: [37:38, 13:05] Well, these are the facts.

In 2010, Donald Trump publicly stated that he thought that WikiLeaks [inaudible] should get the death penalty. During the elections, when WikiLeaks was releasing documents

which showed that both Hillary Clinton and the DNC (Democratic National Convention) and the entourage, were corrupt, with them rigging the primaries for Democrats for Hillary, and against Bernie Sanders …

Cathy: [38:05, 12:32] Yeah

Christine: [38:06, 13:33] … so a lot of corruption came out of those documents …

Cathy: [38:07, 13:34] Mmm.

Christine: [38:08, 13:35] … then Trump says, “I love WikiLeaks.” Right?

Cathy: [38:11, 13:38] Mmm

Christine: [38:12, 13:39] Within weeks of being sworn in as President, his Attorney- General, Jeff Sessions, was saying that charging Julian was a priority. His CIA. Director, Mike Pompeo, was calling him a “non-state intelligence agency” that was “hostile.”

Cathy: [38:29, 13:57] Yes.

Christine: [38:30, 13:58] Trump then promoted Gina Haspel …

Cathy: [38:31, 14:00] "Bloody Gina"?

Christine: [38:33, 14:02] Yeah, “Bloody Gina,” as her colleagues call her. Or “Gina the Torturer.” Against the advice of 100 former US ambassadors - who said the woman was a “nightmare” and “enjoyed torture.” He promoted her anyway. He then promoted Pompeo from CIA Director to US Secretary of State.

Cathy: [38:56, 14:22] Yeah

Christine: [38:57, 14:23] So, it’s not looking good. And yet, with all this Russiagate propaganda, Trump really should be ... and there is a lot of bad media in the US, a lot of propaganda going out of the media. Because under the National Defense Authorization Act there is another clause, and that is that the US government can now legally propagandize their public. And that took an Act.

Cathy: [39:22, 14:49] Wow!

Christine: [39.22, 14:49] So now they’re using all this propaganda - Russia, and “Julian’s associated with Russia”, and all this stuff - probably to get around the First Amendment, so they can use “espionage” to get him instead.

Cathy: [39:37, 15:02] Well, I mean, they’ve got one big problem - that there is no evidence whatsoever that WikiLeaks were involved with Russia. There seems to be quite a lot of links between the Trump campaign and Russia. But they’ve all gone a bit silent on finding evidence of any connection between WikiLeaks and Russia. So …

Christine: [39:51, 15:18] Well, there is none. And in fact, Julian is supported staunchly, by a group of former CIA, FBI and NSA senior ranking officers, who have created a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. They actually advised Bush that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, and were ignored.

They have supported Julian, and in fact honored him with the Sam Adams Award for Integrity in Intelligence, the global, annual US Award by US Intelligence Officers, for the pristine reporting of the war and the war crimes.

They have advised President Trump that they have gone through - as technical advisors, and Bill Binney, who was the architect of NSA, has done the same. And they have concluded, and sent a memorandum to the President, that - based on their research and their knowledge - the DNC servers (or Democratic National Party servers), from which the emails were taken, could not have been accessed from the outside. The download speeds were too fast.

Cathy: [41:03, 16:29] That’s right. They were consistent with a copy to a USB stick.

Christine: [41:06, 16:32] Exactly.

Cathy: [41.07, 16:33] Yeah. That seems to have been ignored. That came out about 10 months ago, and [so] why do we have the press over here, parroting the Russiagate scenario? The “hacking” … the “Russian hacking”?

Christine: [41:18, 16:44] Well the ABC are the worst. The ABC - the State broadcaster is the worst. And, I’ve come across a very interesting article, some time ago, and re- read it again this week, Cathy.

An article written by a former CIA officer called Philip McGee. And he wrote that the CIA, during his time with the CIA which was many years, had infiltrated around the world what he called “civil society”: groups who were capable of changing public opinion, and holding governments to account. And he said that they’d infiltrated at regional, local and international levels: student groups, unions, political parties, women’s groups, and state media.

Cathy: [42:00, 17:26] Mmm.

Christine; [42.01, 17:27] Now I don’t know whether ABC’s been infiltrated, but this is what he’s saying. And one would look at the state media at the moment, and you have got to wonder. Because I have had to pull them up on calling Julian a “hacker” - constantly. They will not refer to him as a journalist.

Cathy: [42:19, 17:45] The interview between Sarah Ferguson and Hillary Clinton. I mean she didn’t pull Clinton up on anything… [Laughs]

Christine; [42.28, 17:55] Exactly.

Cathy: [42:28, 17:55] There were things that were absolutely untrue. And how could she not mention the Podesta emails, the content of the emails. I mean it’s always strictly “Stick to the script of ‘Kill the messenger’,” isn’t it?

Christine: [42:42, 18:09] Well, that’s exactly right, Cathy. And in fact even the CIA, or the DNC, has never ever said that any of those emails weren’t authentic.

Cathy: [42:52, 18:18] Yep, that’s right. I know. Well look, Christine, I have heard one scenario that Trump might want Julian to go through trial so that it will prove that he had nothing to do with the so-called “Russian hacking.” What do you think of that story?

Christine: [43:08, 18:35] Well, who knows? President Trump can change his mind within 24 hours. Let’s hope, if that’s the case, that it’s on a good day.

Cathy: [43:21, 18:48] But certainly, we at Unity4J … that’s this group that Suzie, Elizabeth and Cassandra have got together. I’ve joined it. But there’s 2,700 people nearly, who are people just like us, who are doing their very best to stop it from getting there.

Christine: [43:37, 19:04] Yes, that’s the important thing. It’s all well to say “We’ll defend Julian when he gets over there.” But that’s too late. We’ve got to stop it happening. Because as I said before, under the NDAA, he can just simply disappear without a trial.

Christine: [43:50, 19:16] And they may not want to bring it to trial over there. Because they’ve got the First Amendment. They’re not going to want to test that. So the thing is, to prevent him getting there.

Christine: [43:57, 19:23] And what people can do - if they want to help Julian - is to contact your local politician, the one you would normally vote for, and senator. And your unions, and journalist unions. And we need bodies on the street in front of Parliament. We need people writing letters. You know you can contact obviously whatever your political parties are. We need Medical Associations involved. So if there’s anybody that you think might have influence on the government, contact them. And of course directly, the Prime Minister, the Opposition Leader, and the Foreign Minister.

Cathy: [44:31, 19:58] Yeah, I think in Australia, support is paramount. And also outside the embassy.

Christine: [44:37, 20:04] Australia needs to stand up. I mean we have to decide … It’s all very well talking about “Oh we want to be a Republic.” Well why do we want to be a Republic? Because we want to be a sovereign nation. We want to break away from the British rule, okay?

But if you’re not going to stand up for your citizens when a great big bully superpower is threatening them, detaining without charge, and torturing them, then you’re not a sovereign nation. So we’re either a sovereign nation, or we’re not.

And a lot of people came to this country, actually, because they wanted to live in a sovereign nation. They don’t want to live in a US state. Alright? We want to be our own country, our own people.

And this is a very good case to get behind. Because Julian is dying. He is being slowly murdered. [Cathy sighs] He is being slowly murdered.

And this is the really disgusting thing, Cathy. They’ve got nothing to charge him with, because he’s done nothing wrong.

So, instead of doing the right thing - go “Okay, well we’re going to charge you. We’re going to go to court, and we’re going to have it out.” - they have chosen, deliberately, not to go to court, and to keep him detained in there. And to refuse him the normal requirements of life: fresh air exercise, sunshine, medical care - so that he will gradually die.

Cathy [45:54, 21:22]: Oh

Christine: [45:55, 21:23] And his doctors are now saying, if he’s not gotten out of there, that’s exactly what will happen. He will die. His doctors are already saying he has irreversible damage to his mind and body now. He’s in pain. He has been in chronic pain now, for 2 years. And they refuse safe passage to go to a hospital. They will arrest him straight away, and put him in jail, where that US subpoena will be served.

Cathy: [45:19, 21:48] If we do this to Julian, I mean we’re gonna look back in years and go “Why the hell did that happen?”

Felicity Ruby wrote a wonderful list of WikiLeaks releases that had helped people all around the world. Julian’s a good guy, that doesn’t think of himself - is willing to take sacrifices. But he has done good for humanity. And I think Australians at least need to stand up for him.

Christine: [46:46, 22:14] He’s always been a good guy. I mean, a lot of people don’t know about Julian’s background. At about 19 or 20, he became a single dad and had full

custody of his son when mum was having a few problems coping. And he maintained that for years. He put his university degree on hold so he could be a hands-on father to his little toddler son.

He started one of the first internet providers in Australia. I think it was called Suburbia. And he made that free to all community groups. And he helped them set up their own stuff.

Then later on he was approached by the police, because he … Well look, he did a little bit of hacking when he was a kid; but he never did any damage. He was what they called a “look-see” hacker. A lot of kids were doing it. It was their version of Mount Everest in the digital age. “Can we get into this and have a look?” And what they would do is these kids would get in, they wouldn’t do any damage (the good ones, the bright young kids).

And they’d have a look and they’d just leave a message: “Your site is insecure.” “This is actually insecure.” So that’s, in a way, a warning to people: “Look, people can get into this.” That’s all they did.

Once the police found out about this, they then approached Julian and asked if he could help them bust a pedophile ring. He did it free-of-charge, online. He also helped take off the net, again for the police, a terrorist handbook which was about making bombs.

So it’s not as if all of a sudden, you know, Julian’s become this great guy. He’s always been a good guy.

Cathy: [48:16, 23:42] Yeah. And he’s always done it for free, hasn’t he? WikiLeaks has always been for free.

Christine: [48:18, 23:44] He's always done it for free. That’s right.

Cathy: [48:20, 23:46] And it’s cost him his freedom.

Christine: [48:22, 23:48] And it shouldn’t.

Christine: [48:26, 23:52] And look. I could never be as brave as Julian. And most of us couldn’t. But what we can do, when we have people who are as brave as this, that get thrown up through our history, is stand up for them.

Cathy: [48:36, 24:02] Yeah

Christine: [48:37, 24:03] We can’t do what they do. Few people would do what he did. But we can stand up and protect them. We can can stand up to our government and say:

“No. Evil is not going to flourish, because good men are going to do something. And you are not going to take this man, and detain him 8 years without charge, just because he exposed corruption.

And you’re not going to torture him! And you’re not going to extradite him and then throw him in jail, where he’ll never be seen again! Because we’re good people and we’re going to stand up!”

And throughout history … We are only at this point in time now because our ancestors stood up against evil.

Cathy: [49:12, 24:38] Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I was just going to ask you – I know that his legal team can get into see him, and one of those is obviously Jennifer Robinson. Have you heard from Jenn how his morale is at the moment?

Christine: [49:27, 24:54] Well … Julian is very resilient. Even though his body is really suffering and he’s in pain. He has the resilience that comes from knowing that you’re standing on solid ground, in morally good dirt. Okay? And so, he knows that’s he’s done nothing wrong. He’s only brought the truth to the people and held their governments accountable. So, there’s a strength that comes from that. He’s resilient in that sense.

However, he is also a human being. And he has a body that needs nourishment and attention. And while his spirit is willing, his body is like all of our bodies, it needs to be nourished. And it’s not happening. And he’s not getting medical care.

And he’s being bullied. We see our government … We say: “Oh isn’t bullying terrible? You know, we’ve all got to stand up against bullying.” It just goes on and on and on.

And what have we got? We’ve got probably the most extreme example of bullying on the entire planet sitting up there in the Ecuadorian Embassy. A single man being bullied by two governments, and the complete resources of two governments. And one of those governments bullying another government - that’s Ecuador.

And our government, his country, his Prime Minister, standing by and watching him being bullied. Don’t we tell our children in our playgrounds: “If you see someone being bullied, don’t let that happen. Stand up and say something?”

Cathy: [50:54, 26:21] Yeah.

Christine: [50:55, 26:22] Well I’m asking the Australian people to stand up and say something. And say

“No, we’re better than this. We’re not going to let this happen.

And if you don’t have the guts - Mr Turnbull - to do it, we’re going to make you do it. Because the will of the people is going to be so strong, you will have no choice.”

Cathy: [51:14, 26:39] Yeah ... Yeah, we’ll do that for you Christine. We will …

Christine: [51:19, 26:44] Thank you Cathy. I want to say thank you to everybody that’s stood up, and is standing up, because it does make a difference.

It holds off the worst excesses at the moment. He hasn’t been evicted – and that I’m sure that has, to a large degree, got to do with the strong ground swell of support that’s suddenly come on, in the last year.

Cathy: [51:34, 27:03] Yeah.

Christine: [51:38, 27:04] So you mightn’t think anything’s been stopped, but I think it is.

Cathy: [51:41, 27:07] Yes. I think so too.

Christine: [51:42, 27:08] You know, people don’t have to do this. They’re doing this because they want to. They’re taking out time and they’re taking out money - donating to his legal defense fund. I really appreciate it. It’s not only is it helping save his life, but it’s really helping to boost his morale and his family’s morale - for us to keep going.

I really thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Cathy: [52:04, 27:31] We thank you too, for speaking to us tonight, Christine. Courage to you as well, as a mother. You must have such mixed feelings. The most incredible

pride in your son. And at the same time, this terrible fear that’s just gone on and on and on for 7 years now - 8 years, in fact.

So when will it end? We want it to end well. We want Julian’s human rights to be respected, his asylum to be respected. And for him to be brought back home to Australia and live a normal life again.

Christine: [52:40, 28:06] Exactly. He has the same needs as other people. My son hasn’t felt the grass on his feet for 6 years. He hasn’t seen the sky, except for a couple of times on the balcony … and he’s got to be really careful because he’s worried about assassination.

He hasn’t held his children. He hasn’t seen a bird, he hasn’t heard a bird sing. He hasn’t smelt fresh air. The sensory deprivation is shocking. Really, really shocking. His eyesight is failing because he can’t look into the distance.

If this was going on in a third-world country, or Russia - this human rights abuse at the level of a war crime - if this was going on anywhere in a non-Western country, they would be all screaming at the top of their lungs.

They did more for a pedophile, one of the worst pedophiles the world has ever seen, who was an Australian citizen: Peter Scully. This pedophile was raping and killing babies.

And the Australian government was over there with Consular support. They gave him … Well they were going to give him $500,000, until there was a terrible outcry about it. I don’t know how much of the money he actually received. They go and bail out people who have been charged with smuggling drugs.

My son’s not been charged with anything. Nothing.

Cathy: [54:04, 29:31] Yeah, I know, I know. Just journalism. Journalism, and doing it much better than … More scoops than all the MSM [Mainstream Media] combined, in the last 30 years. It’s too much too soon, perhaps.

Christine: [54:22, 29:47] One of the things that really struck me about the emails that came out of the DNC, and Hillary, was the revelation that Hillary Clinton - when she was Secretary of State under Obama - had decided she was going to invade Libya because she wanted a feather in her cap for her run for the President, the Presidency.

Cathy: [54:45, 34:09] Yeah. That’s in the Podesta emails. I read that.

Christine: [54:49, 34:11] And what effectively happened, is that Libya was the cork on Europe … And there was an interview between John Pilger, another wonderful Australian journalist, and my son, where Julian revealed all this, and John and Julian talked about it. And John’s an incredible defender.

What effectively has happened, is that once Libya was invaded and decimated, it fuelled IS and uncorked Africa, and coming through the Middle East. And that’s caused the millions of refugees to flow into Europe.

Cathy: [55:29, 30:56] Well, and pretty much the slave trade, as well, that’s going on.

Christine: [55:34, 31:00] And the slave trade. So this is the sort of information that he is revealing. And look what has happened - as a result of that - to all of Europe.

And I would like to see Australian people … You see a lot of people down there, you know, protesting the rights of refugees.

Where are they on my son? My son’s an Australian political refugee. He has not only been tortured, and detained without any kind of charge or trial, but he’s the one who’s blown the whistle on why all of the other refugees are in the trouble that they’re in.

Cathy: [56:07, 31:33] Well, what kind of world is it where you have to destroy a state, a leader, and what - about 40,000 people killed - in order to get a feather in your cap?

But if you are anti-war, and you’re denouncing war crimes, then you get tortured. What kind of world is it today Christine?

Christine: [56:26, 31:53] Well, it’s one we have to fight against, isn’t it? Liberty isn’t something that we attain and then go, “Oh isn’t that great! We’ve now got liberty.” And then go back and just enjoy our lives. We’ve got to continually fight for it, because there are always people trying to take it away.

People in large corporations, they don’t want the people to have liberty. They want the corporations to have as much control as possible. And with the internet and the surveillance going around the globe now - something that Julian and WikiLeaks exposed in their Vault 7 exposé from the CIA - that never has liberty been more under threat than right now, because of the technology.

So we’ve got this intersection in history, of the rise of technology and the rise of totalitarianism. Whether it comes from left or right. Because both sides are capable of abusing power. And that’s a really important thing for people to become aware of - that both left and right can abuse power.

And there are various different types of left. There’s various different types of right. The traditional left is still very much supporting Julian. The liberal left, which has allied themselves with the more wealthy classes, not so much, definitely.

But with the #Unity4J movement to support Julian, I’m working with all sorts of people. I’m working from people who are Trump supporters, to socialists and everything in between.

What all Julian’s supporters have in common, regardless of their political ideologies or backgrounds, is the desire to maintain democracy and freedom. And free speech, free press, fair legal process, and human rights, are part of that. And will can all come together on that. Even if we want to argue ‘til the cows come home about every other brand of thing that we stand up for, those four things are what ensure liberty.

Cathy: [58:31, 33:57] That’s true. That’s true. Well I think we’ve kind of run out of time Christine.

Christine: [58:37, 34:03] Okay Cathy, thank you for having me.

Cathy: [58:39, 34:05] Thank you so much. Bye Christine.